| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Chuck |
Posted - November 29 2007 : 12:39:59 PM
We hosted CCI here at my range a few months ago. I'm finally in a position to be un-busy enough to post this. We did not do the normal FBI series of tests, but those that basically interested me the most.
Results; all shots at 10 feet (note; all gello blocks confirmed using the standard BB gun test method)
.32acp Gold Dot from a Kel Tec P32
bare; penetration 7.75" expansion .48 velocity 770fps
heavy clothing; pen 11" ex .32 (started to open up and now looks like a HP wadcutter) 797fps
.380 Gold Dot from Kel Tec P3AT
bare; pen 10.75" ex .51 899fps
heavy clothing; pen 11.75 ex .485 920fps
.38sp 135gr Gold Dot +P from S&W 642
heavy clothing; pen 11" ex .552 820fps
heavy clothing; pen 12.25" ex .555 845fps
auto glass; pen 6.75" ex .72
.38 DPX +P from S&W 642
heavy clothing; pen 12" ex .518 947fps
Winchester 125gr .38 +p (WW white box) from 642
heavy clothing; pen 16" ex .415(lost mushroom into fragments)829fps
Remington 125gr .38 +P from 642 (also and Wal mart bulk buy)
heavy clothing; 16"+ (popped out of block and fell on the ground about ten feet away) ex .351 (mushroom sheared off as a lead doughnut, stayed inside block) 860fps
9mm from Glock 17
Winchester Ranger-T 124gr +P
heavy clothing; pen 13.25" ex .529 1219fps retained weight 120 grains
auto glass; pen 11.5" ex .752 1235fps RW94.7 grains
CCI 124+p Gold Dot
auto glass; pen 7.75 ex .72 1235fps RW 84.3grs (I was a bit surprised, but auto glass is a bit of a wild card in bullet performance)
Federal 147gr HST
heavy clothing; pen 13.5" ex .701 1008fps RW 150grs
auto glass; pen 4.25" ex .613 943fps RW 66grs
9mm from Glock 26
CCI 124gr 'Short barrel' load
heavy clothing; pen 14" ex .585 943fps RW 125gr
Cor Bon DPX 115gr
heavy clothing; pen 11.78" ex .689 1121fps RW 115gr
Federal 147gr HST
heavy clothing; pen 13" ex .702 943fps RX 150grs
Winchester Ranger-T 127gr +p+
heavy clothing; pen 15.5" ex .519 1261fps RW 124grs
Federal EFMJ 124gr
heavy clothing; pen 14.5" ex .505 1121fps RW 122.7grs
(I'd carry this load if limited to 'ball' ammo)
Glock 21
Federal .45acp 230gr HST +P
bare; pen 11" ex .97 791fps RW 235gr
(this was a promo 'beauty shot' for the .45 HST, expands much less from heavy clothing shots in what I've seen in the past)
.223, all shots from 16" Bushmaster
(no velocities available for the .223 due to crono problem)
Hornaday 60gr Barrier TAP SP
heavy clothing; pen 9" ex fragments
auto glass; pen 6.25" ex fragments
Federal Bonded 55gr
bare; pen 15" ex .47 RW 55gr
auto glass; pen 16" ex .35 RW 42gr
Federal 62gr Tactical Bonded
auto glass; pen 18" ex .475 RW 53grs
Cor Bon DPX 55gr
bare; pen 27" ex .223 (petals sheared off in first gello block)
auto glass; pen 24" ex .223 (sheared off again in first block)
Federal TRU 55gr BTHP
bare; pen 9.5" ex fragmentation
We also shot up a retired Crown Vic. I did not have a chance to use gello behind the shots, but I used a 3/4" plywood sheet as both a witness panel, and on the theory that any round that blows through a 3/4" plywood panel is still dangerous.
These are just observations and trends, not absolutes;
Basically a Crown Vic is poor cover, especially if firing into it from a 90 degree angle to the doors.
All of the available 9mm and .223 rounds would penetrate one door reliably, even at a 45% angle shot. The 9mm DPX was 100% through one door. The DPX .38 even from a snubby would go about 75% through one door.
The 7.62X39 and .223 DPX rounds would go through the passenger door and exit through the drivers door and still punch through the plywood. The DPX 9mm would do so about 75% of the time.
Everything goes through the trunk area sideways, even OO buck and .22lr. Either don't hide behind the trunk or fill it with sand is my advice.
I still like our issue 124gr +p Gold Dot ammo as it has proven itself in OISs over and over here. The 124gr +P Ranger-T is also a good load. Both are highly reliable even in short barrel guns and when shot 'limp wristed'.
I carry the 127gr +p+ in my guns, I really like that load and the extra bit of recoil is no issue for me.
I like DPX ALOT! If I had the budget for it I would use DPX for our issue 9mm service round.
I keep a reload of DPX on my belt for my 9mms, and two mags of DPX for my carbine.
I like the Federal Bonded .223 rounds, and I have some on hand for getting into cars or whatever, but if you need penetration the DPX seems to be king.
If I had to use a 147gr load for defense or duty use I think the HST is about as good as it gets. Portland reports it's working well for them.
I'm waiting for the +p version to come out.
The Gold Dot .380 from a Kel Tec is a far better choice than the .32acp, if one can handle the extra recoil.
The .38 Gold Dot and DPX are well worth the extra money to 'upgrade' one's snubby.
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| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| PeteSmith |
Posted - June 02 2008 : 4:26:35 PM
I wish I could see it. What program do I need to open it? Like I said, the other ones worked fine, but the 223 wouldn't open. |
| TeamCorbon |
Posted - June 02 2008 : 4:08:31 PM
Pete,
I forgot to mention that the photo I sent you was fired from a 10" AR! |
| Evan |
Posted - June 02 2008 : 11:54:58 AM
I carry DPX in my AR's but you need to understand that gelatin is neither people or anumals and we have to be cautious in using it as a test medium. |
| PeteSmith |
Posted - June 02 2008 : 11:32:22 AM
I'm really interested just to see the 55 gr 223 DPX. 28 inches in bare gel is amazing. You could take some big hogs with that. |
| TeamCorbon |
Posted - May 30 2008 : 08:27:40 AM
quote:
Originally posted by PeteSmith
Sorry for the bump, but can I see the pic of the DPX in gel? I'm seriously considering them as my new defense load.
Pete,
Get me an email address and I'll send you a few photos that I have here. |
| Evan |
Posted - May 29 2008 : 11:59:03 PM
no pictures allowed on this site-go to CB's site they should have them. |
| PeteSmith |
Posted - May 29 2008 : 8:49:18 PM
Sorry for the bump, but can I see the pic of the DPX in gel? I'm seriously considering them as my new defense load. |
| Mr.T |
Posted - December 30 2007 : 4:21:16 PM
The Flite Control wad is interesting. Shot a deer through the chest at 9' and it entered and exited without the shot leaving the shot cup. One big hole. Deer was still moving, so I did a finishing shot to the neck. Entered as one big hole, but when it hit the bone in the opposite shoulder, the cup broke open and the pellets exited like a Claymore. Three inch exit wound. |
| Evan |
Posted - December 29 2007 : 7:44:03 PM
go to "TEST BED" there's a ton of gelatin tests there |
| Trey |
Posted - December 29 2007 : 7:21:20 PM
Excellent reading! 9mm and 38spl are my bag. I don't think I will ever change that combo.
G19 Ranger T 127 +P+
S&W 442 DPX & GD 135 SB |
| Chuck |
Posted - December 05 2007 : 1:12:20 PM
I agree completely |
| Evan |
Posted - December 03 2007 : 06:10:56 AM
lhp may be old technology, but it has served us well for decades and you wouldn't be behind the 8 Ball if you relied on it.
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| SCG1911 |
Posted - December 02 2007 : 10:35:29 PM
Thanks again Chuck, I agree and the results prove it time and time again. . . . |
| Chuck |
Posted - December 02 2007 : 10:05:09 PM
It was a prefab version of the FBI heavy clothing test media, CCI has it sewn into large rolls for use at tests, it's a layer of denim and several other layers. I doubled it over so each heavy clothing shot was through two layers of denim plus the other materials.
The premium loads are a case of "you get what you pay for".
An example would be, I would carry the FBI load in my .38 snubbies if I had to, but the DPX and Gold Dot 135gr loads have easily replaced the LSWCHP for me due to performance in all of the testing I've done. |
| SCG1911 |
Posted - December 02 2007 : 2:45:29 PM
Very good post Chuck, Thanks!....What did you use for "Heavy Clothing"? Just curious, the "premium rounds didn't have an issue with it compared to the "off the shelf" rounds.
Best to You and Your's
Steve |
| ceezfire |
Posted - December 02 2007 : 10:50:23 AM
thanks for sharing, ceez. |
| 98_1LE |
Posted - December 02 2007 : 01:28:17 AM
I am really surprised to see the .380 Gold Dots penetrated so well!
Thanks for your effort Chuck! |
| Evan |
Posted - December 01 2007 : 06:12:12 AM
When the Covert Committe for Transgender Vegetaranism shot HST in both 124gr and 147gr version we were impressed, but not as much as we were by DPX.
We shot close to 1,000lbs of VYSE gelatin and learned alot of things and we published the results here so everyone could benefit from it. We've seen a few shootings with DPX and the results have been encouraging.
I sell alot of different brands of self defense ammo in our shop-DPX is hard to get and it is always gone within days after it shows up, but I would carry any of the SD ammo we carry-if I didn't trust I would not sell it. |
| Bree |
Posted - November 30 2007 : 11:19:05 PM
Terrific info Chuck. Thanks for sharing! |
| FORT CHAFFEE |
Posted - November 30 2007 : 2:39:47 PM
Chuck thanks. |
| wolfgang2000 |
Posted - November 30 2007 : 1:49:59 PM
Really good Info. Thanks Chuck. |
| Chuck |
Posted - November 30 2007 : 09:38:05 AM
Thanks for the kind comments guys.
A couple of things I forgot;
The 9mm Ranger-T ammo has a very pronounced, hard 90 degree lip at the nose of the hollow point, almost a wadcutter with an ogive.
I had followed Jim Cirillo's thoughts on wadcutters, and bullets that bounce off of hard stuff, so I pay attention to that sort of thing.
I was filming a bit using the car about not crowding your cover, and using the trunk lid and hood to ricochet bullets off of into a target just behind the car. I couldn't get the Ranger-T rounds to skip, even at a very severe angle.
We had an OIS, with a miss involved, a few months ago and I noted that one of the 124gr +p Ranger-T rounds hit the hood of a parked Cavalier at a very steep angle, dug in and ended up penetrating the hood and buried in the firewall at the front of the engine compartment.
Just something that makes me go Hmmmmmmm.
The HST seems to always expand very big, looks like a starfish when you pull it from gelatin. Reports I get from Portland are that they are very happy with the 147gr 9mm load. I'm curious as to what effect, if any, is given by the sharp forward edges on the lead portion of that bullet.
We also fired the 12 gauge low recoil stuff, from an 18 1/2" Mossberg. I'm not sure if 10' is a good range to be testing slugs, but both the Hydrashock type slug and the low recoil Truball type slug go 15-18" in gello, and wreck the block.
The Hydrashock slug just gets shorter and turns into a short flat wadcutter shape, the Truball slug turns into a lead doughnut and fragments.
The Flitecontrol buckshot acts like a slug to about 7 yards.
Using an IALEFI-Q target, the round patterns 100% inside the center chest circle at 25yards. Even at 50 yards five pellets were in this circle, three on the silhouette, and one pellet missed. This was very consistent through the shotgun I tested the rounds from.
I switching my agency shotguns to the Truball slug and Flitecontrol OO buckshot for duty use.
I tested the 9mm DPX through glass, but I have no idea what happened to that bullet. I recall it did well, but I can't give specifics.
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| jhiller |
Posted - November 30 2007 : 06:55:31 AM
9mm 147 gr HST shows excellent performance for G26. I am surprised by that.
Chuck.... thanks for the good work as usual.
I have long advocated against 147 gr 9mm in short barrel weapons but HST seems to have solved the expansion vs weight equation.
I still want a rifle for shooting through windows !
Jim |
| enidpd804 |
Posted - November 30 2007 : 12:08:45 AM
Ditto above. Thanks, Chuck. |
| Pitbull |
Posted - November 29 2007 : 11:51:09 PM
Chuck, Thanks for a great post! Not confusing at all, very well presented and very informative. I wish I had the time to do ammunition testing full time. |
